Episode 32
Transforming Leadership with Curiosity and Courage
Summary:
Hillary Wilson shares her transformative journey in leading organizational change in a global pharmaceutical company. Struggling with persuasion tactics, she discovered a new way of leading through curiosity and self-awareness. Hosted by Alexa Beavers, this episode delves into the inner work that powers effective leadership. As Hillary highlights the importance of collaboration and tapping into collective strengths, listeners learn about embracing courage, leveraging diverse inputs, and finding purpose-driven leadership. Ideal for those looking to enhance their change management skills and personal growth.
Chapters:
0:00
Unlocking Transformation Through Self-Awareness and Purposeful Leadership
3:48
The Limits of Persuasion in Professional Growth
5:17
Transforming Pharma Culture: Bridging Medical and Commercial Teams
Embracing Growth and Learning in Change Management
Transforming Leadership Through Curiosity and Collaboration
Executive Coaching as a Catalyst for Personal Growth
Recognizing and Adjusting Overused Strengths for Personal Growth
Deepening Self Awareness for Career Fulfillment and Joy
Embracing Curiosity and Courage for Personal and Professional Growth
Discovering Purpose and Courage Through Personal Transformation
Host Alexa Beavers: linkedin.com/in/alexabeaverspmp
Guest Hillary Wilson: linkedin.com/in/hillarymarywilson
Executive Producer Jim Kanichirayil: linkedin.com/in/drjimk
Music Credit: "Lost in Dreams" by Kulakovka
Transcript
But as we know, changing culture and even delivering on business strategies in new ways requires people to change behaviors. And so I would say once you get the leadership team, or once I was able to get the leadership team to paint the picture of that future state, asking both, what do you think it's gonna take to get there?
o you think your role is and [:Alexa Beavers: you're driving the transformation. You've mapped the strategy, clarified the message, lined up the data. You've done everything you're supposed to do to get people on board, and yet it's just not landing. They're not buying in progress is slow.
listening to the resistance [:This is a conversation about control, emotion, self-awareness, and the inner work that unlocks collective transformation. If you've ever felt stuck. Even while doing all the right things. This episode offers a brave invitation. Before you change the system, check the mirror.
rategies, improve processes, [:Change. She's also really good at building diverse teams, high performing teams, and those that are focused on shared purpose and actually getting a few things done. Right now, Hillary is the team effectiveness lead for people and organizational growth consulting practice at Roche. She has this amazing knack for helping leaders and businesses execute their strategies, improve processes, and really boost leadership.
Hillary, I'm so glad you're here with us today on Transformation Unfiltered. And you know that our podcast is all about bringing the unfiltered view to what transformation really looks like. The view we often don't see in the background. So I'd love to just get right into it.
Is that okay with you?
Hillary Wilson: Absolutely.
Alexa Beavers: If that's the case, tell me about something that happened earlier in your career that really informed this, that might have been considered like a mistake or a misstep.
on't think it was one thing, [:The ability to influence and use words pretty well. And, I, as I went to law school and all of that. I think that kind of right around 35 maybe, or about 20 ish years ago, I started realizing that constantly being in that place of persuasion, constantly trying to convince I.
Others to change or to improve or the value of this transformation effort or the reason behind the strategic initiative from a convincing persuasion perspective, actually wasn't getting me where I wanted to go. And there were a couple situations where it actually fell on its face.
ations. I, you mentioned you [:Hillary Wilson: Okay.
Alexa Beavers: you know this pattern reared its head.
Hillary Wilson: Yeah, I, I started working in large scale organizational change initiatives. Those things have been called different things throughout the last 20 plus years, right? Sometimes it was operational excellence, sometimes it was, a strategic priority of a large organization or something along those lines.
gulatory rules introduced in [:And that, that wasn't allowed and a lot of. Commercial and medical field teams just in pharma just decided we don't know how to interact, so we're just not gonna interact. So the initiative I was working on was how could we bring this, these medical and commercial teams into closer collaboration?
platform key messages I hung [:In so much that I got like the chief medical officer and the CEO to do a video series and I was writing their scripts and I was thinking, if we just push these messages down, then you know, the thousands of people in the field, they're gonna change their behavior. My aha moment was that my.
Persuasive skills. My, my approach lacked actually a real appreciation for understanding how change happens in organizations. That I wasn't out there selling a future state. I needed to ask people more. Why they might be willing to move to this future state and how it might help our customers and patients in the long run?
What it [:Alexa Beavers: I love that you're getting into this. So just a little recap. I'm gonna just, I think it was the Sunshine Act, a law that was really like, don't let the the two mix when it comes to the science behind a medicine and the marketing, because that can get messy.
And we've seen a lot of things unfold from that. And your job, which sounds like a pretty tall order, was to figure out, okay. How do we get these two important groups in this process to interface in a way that's legally allowed and would be supportive to the overall experience of the patients at the end of the day?
Hillary Wilson: Exactly. And that was harder, right? It's a lot easier to not talk than to navigate gray areas,
Alexa Beavers: oh, that's a great one.
n: It's a lot easier to just [:And that and maybe didn't have the willingness to navigate, to do the work, to navigate that gray area.
Alexa Beavers: Fair enough. I wanna I'll come back to that, but I do wanna back up a little bit to, your role in all this. So you had a pretty big job. You, when you think about what your role in this was, what was your, what was the thing you were supposed to carry? What was the thing that you wanted to drive over the finish line?
rketing and some people from [:And. My role was ultimately to move the organization from behaving in one way, to behaving in a new way. And, we flipped various levers to do that. One was, we're gonna revise our policies. By the way, at one point the leadership thought that would be enough. If we just revised our policies, everyone would change their behavior, which we quickly learned was not the case.
Then I was like they need to hear it from the top, right? This is a culture shift. We need to hear those messages from the top. And that then I launched this whole, video series. I felt like I probably carried a lot of the burden there. And and don't get me wrong, some things changed, but not in a sustainable, broad reaching way and.
ough about, project planning [:Alexa Beavers: That's humbling. I appreciate you saying that. We started on, I was trying to convince, I was trying to push, I was trying to I. Gathered. I learned, I hear a lot of I, so when you said I was carrying a lot of the burden, I'm like, yeah. Feels like very heavy.
Hillary Wilson: Yep.
Alexa Beavers: And when you just said, I realized I didn't have the capability, what's that like for you?
Someone who's always been so on top of things?
requires a lot of different [:And I. Got honest with myself about where I had gaps as soon as I got there, and really shifted into that growth mindset of I'm interested in doing this work, so I'm gonna go learn. I. And, I tend to take it even the next step further and, my squiggly career I take it the next step further and I'm like, okay, now that I have the education, I need to go practice, right?
And so I go seek out a job where I get to learn how to do the work that I've been taught. It's humbling. But at the same time, when you make that shift to a willingness and an openness for growth. And not knowing it takes a lot of the pressure off.
Alexa Beavers: I can imagine. And if I was gonna look at you watch you in action, like a fly on the wall when you were in, I'm gonna get this over the finish line mode. I, what would I have noticed about how you showed up in the room?
standing and alignment. Dri, [:All of the work. There were plenty of people that carried action items, but I think what I wanted more was more people to carry the change leadership role. Yeah,
Alexa Beavers: the change leadership role mean? Because I really wanna know what's the difference between doing action items and.
Hillary Wilson: Action items were like revising policies, right? Versus being. An attorney in a large pharma legal department who's walking every day through conversations with internal clients and carrying the message that we're really trying to move to this way of navigating an interface that is productive and helpful for our customers.
s effort to be carrying that [:Alexa Beavers: It's a big aha. I imagine when you were doing a lot of telling, a lot of directing, that was one reaction. What was the difference? What was the distinction? What would I have noticed when you. Turned the corner and tried something different.
Hillary Wilson: I guess what I'll say is it's taken me a long time to get there, so the example that we're talking about in medical commercial interface was, a decade ago about, I. Five, six years ago, I'm working in a high tech company driving, again, leading a marketing transformation, interfacing with a global marketing leadership team and saying to them, if you want the following, you need to do the following, and here's why.
asion, a lot of telling, and [:Alexa Beavers: What are your indicators when something isn't landing? I wonder what does that, how do you detect that?
Hillary Wilson: Usually when I would go into a global marketing leadership team meeting, I would really hope that, I would usually have some sort of desired outcome in my head, right?
Or I would even communicate it. My goal for today is that we all agree to, or commit to, or whatever, so I wouldn't lead, I wouldn't leave with having achieved that outcome. And I also would feel a little bit like, did they understand what I would, I was saying I would get mixed feedback in terms of facial expressions.
Maybe some would tune out, right? Get on their devices of some kind or I would notice a little bit of disengagement in the room. And that was always frustrating 'cause I felt so passionately about the work.
rs: Yeah. What did you do in [:Hillary Wilson: probably different ways at different times. I would say at my worst I. Like my most exasperated, I'll give you that. My wor my worst and most exasperated self turns the tables back onto the leadership team and says how do you guys think we should get there?
Alexa Beavers: Kind of Hey, I've done all I can I surrender? What do you think?
Hillary Wilson: And it took me a while to realize I needed to start asking those questions not way before I was surrendering.
From a more curious, a more collaborative space.
Alexa Beavers: Ooh, what is, okay, so what's the difference between exasperated what would you do and what do you guys think? How did, tell me more about that.
rks, usually the most senior [:But as we know, changing culture and even delivering on business strategies in new ways requires people to change behaviors. And so I would say once you get the leadership team, or once I was able to get the leadership team to paint the picture of that future state, asking both, what do you think it's gonna take to get there?
would have gotten me so much [:I would've real I wouldn't have felt, I think that I was speaking a different language than them because I ended up feeling that way, like I'm speaking a language and they're not speaking that language. If I had solicited some of their language in the beginning, I could have leveraged that.
Alexa Beavers: I think that what you just, what I noticed, what really struck me is in the beginning there was a whole lot of I happening and a lot of statements. I want this, I got this, I'm telling you this, I'm gonna get the leadership team to do this. And just now I was drawn in by what do you think your job is? What?
Would you like to see? There's a lot more about what and you, not about the eye. So tell me a little bit about what it took for you to find that secret pivot, or it's not a secret now 'cause you just let it out, but
Hillary Wilson: Not a secret.
Alexa Beavers: find that [:Hillary Wilson: Obviously it took some reflection, getting to that frustrated place and doing some reflection. I'll tell you what I did first in that particular situation. I thought I know what I'll do. I will go get some education in an executive coaching. That's what I'm gonna do. That will help me interact with these executives differently.
I will learn new skills and already, I'm somebody who likes to develop new skills, has a growth mindset. So that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do this executive coaching program. I didn't enter it thinking I'm gonna become an executive coach necessarily. I just thought this will help me with my key stakeholder interactions.
ncy toward advice giving, my [:And, in order to become a good coach, whether it's an executive, a team, or anybody else, a direct report, it needs to be really other centric and curious and that, that was really my turning point.
Alexa Beavers: I think that's fascinating. What's nice is that your growth mindset and your thirst for knowledge took you there, and there was a surprise along the way. I think it wasn't just a skill you were gaining, but you said, I got some pretty big insights about my tendencies and. Those insights about your tendencies.
I imagine there's other people out there who love to give advice, who may be really prone to giving their opinion. How can you get to that part of yourself that allows you to see those tendencies for what they are and when they're serving you and not.
strength, because obviously [:Of what is naturally a good thing. So a getting aware of what are those over, what are the things you see when you are potentially overusing. A strength and it's two places. It's what are you seeing outside of yourself? And what I was seeing was a lack of buy-in a resistance from the leaders to act in the way that I was suggesting.
myself, why am I frustrated [:With another person, place, or thing. The opportunity is to accept that other person, place, or thing exactly the way they are. I. And to look at what you can change. And so I think that was what led me to what do I need to change? And in the moment, and it's a constant thing too, Alexa, as it's not like you get fixed and all of a sudden you're a whole new person. It's a constant thing. And you know what I notice now is that. When I'm under a lot of stress or when I'm under a big deadline, or I have a lot going on, I tend toward that high drive directive style, and I have to be super conscious of how is my body feeling?
ctice has served me and just [:Alexa Beavers: So it was an outside and an inside job that turned you to knowing that I need to do something different. And I really love the way you said, outside I was seeing these things. I could, you could observe things and it seems like the breakthrough came when you were able to look within and maybe listen to the frustration and say, what are you doing here?
What's this about? What are you telling me? And then what can I do about it?
How has that, we're fast forwarding to this day. How has that particular journey informed where you are now? How did it fast forward? You?
re are a couple lessons that [:But my self-awareness, I thought, I think, needed to deepen and become more nuanced. Not just a sort of surface level understanding of my strengths and my weaknesses or, my overuses or my style. I've done a bunch of, personality style tests, right? Not just that surface knowledge, but couple clicks down from that in terms of how does it show up.
wrong, I think this work can [:Alexa Beavers: A big one.
Hillary Wilson: Another one, which you have spoken to, which is, I don't need to carry the whole responsibility alone. There are brilliant people surrounding me, and to be honest with you, I've always been a great leverage of teams. I like working in matrix teams. I like, project teams, work product teams.
power that is only yet to be [:And, maybe the benefits of letting other voices like make the case, letting other voices into the room. Could have been even more influential in getting those messages across. So deepening self-awareness, being more inclusive, not carrying the body of work alone. I would say were a couple key lessons for me.
Alexa Beavers: I love it. You said something that really stood out to me, which is I learned the patterns, the things that. Helped me to notice how I was doing and how I brought my, how to bring myself into self.
Tell me a little bit about the importance of that in all of this.
different it feels when I am [:I have been able to chart a path to something that genuinely brings me joy, fulfillment, a sense of purpose. It feels very aligned to who I am and what I wanna do and where I wanna be. Yeah. Yeah. And and again, as we build greater self-awareness, we realize more quickly when we're doing things that aren't aligned to purpose, that don't feel good, that are organizations we don't wanna be in.
t comes, but again, it comes [:Alexa Beavers: Beautiful. And maybe knowing what moves you, helps you know how to engage with others to find what moves them.
I think all of this is powerful and you've had a lot of lessons. Think of someone in early in their career and the road that you took to this transformation from wanting to be the most successful change leader by persuading and telling and just pushing it over the finish line to, I've brought myself into myself.
I have the capabilities and the in inside knowledge to be in a place of joy and purpose. So what would you tell somebody that wants to have that same thing for themselves?
, my junior say. One is that [:And really bring in the value of diverse thinking. And just by doing that, exercising that curiosity muscle, it has lowered my stress levels, my anxiety brought me more joy. I've learned so much from others, which I love. The other thing I would say is the courage to try before try something before you're actually an expert.
ous enough to apply for some [:And I think we all know, and all we have to do is talk to our friends in learning and development. And they will tell you that like we build new skills and capabilities. The majority of the time in the job, right? We can go to a learning, we can get some content, we can maybe learn the content, but it's when we start practicing that we actually build new capabilities.
And so having that courage to go for something that I might not even. Have the experience to, but if I'm coming in with a growth mindset, if I'm coming in with some education, if I'm coming in with an a can-do attitude and some bravery I would say go do that to, to younger folks, especially women who think that they need to like be an expert before and meet every requirement of a job description before they apply.
Don't do that. You [:Alexa Beavers: I think that's beautiful. Wondering when you're no longer here, how do you wanna be remembered?
Hillary Wilson: I want to be remembered as someone who modeled courage and bravery and inspired people, both in my personal life and my professional life to be brave enough to challenge the status quo in service of all people. That's how I wanna remember that.
uch to your, so much more in [:Hillary Wilson: Yes.
Alexa Beavers: other people.
And I think that's incredibly powerful. I wanna, I think a lot of people are gonna wanna know more about you, Hillary. I would love if you would tell people where they can find you.
Hillary Wilson: I'm on LinkedIn and I'm sure you have my LinkedIn profile link, so hopefully it'll share that. And feel free, anyone can reach out, done a lot of different roles in different large companies, and I'd be happy to speak to anybody who's following this phenomenal podcast that you have created.
way, and when you transform, [:There's a lot of lessons here. Being curious, giving yourself the courage to go out there and do something. I. Maybe it's better when you realize, Hey, I'm not alone in this. I don't have to push it over the finish line alone. I'm gonna be courageous, realize I don't have to hold so tight to how we get to that outcome.
There's other people out there that have gifts and I'm good enough to bring it out of them, but I don't have to have all the answers. Hillary demonstrated that in her journey, and I can't wait to see what you do next as you follow your heart and your purpose. Always a pleasure. It was so good to be with you today. Now you mentioned it's a fab, fabulous podcast. If other people are listening, think that too. I invite you to follow transformation on filtered on your favorite podcast platform. And, subscribe, share it with your friends. Share this episode with people that you think might grow from it.